There are dozens of filmmakers who get giddy at the thought of orchestrating an army of extras, all made up to look as if the flesh is rotting on their bones, all shuffling forward as if battling rigor mortis, all moaning and grasping and jaws chomping in anticipation. Jim Jarmusch is not one of those filmmakers. Im more of a vampire guy, the 66-year-old director admits, and even if you havent seen his stellar addition to that horror subgenre 2014s Only Lovers Left Alive you could have guessed that immortal bloodsuckers are more his monsters du jour. Theyve seen it all. Theyre nocturnal. They never age. Theyre fucking cool, man, he adds, sounding as cool as any human being who has ever said anything while wearing sunglasses and sitting in a Lower East Side diner, which is saying something.
So when you ask Jarmusch why someone who doesnt salivate at the notion of unleashing undead hordes upon an unsuspecting populace has made a bona fide zombie movie, maybe it isnt surprising that the indie-film godhead references his own vampire tale. Theres a throwaway line in Only Lovers Left Alive, Jarmusch says, where the couple talks about humans being zombies because theyre not conscious of whats around them. And look how unconscious so much of the world is right now, for the most part, of its impending end. Its sad and its maddening.
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And its the maddening part that really propels The Dead Dont Die, Jarmuschs singular take on the shambling-corpses-crave-flesh story template. Yes, the movie is an extended goof, stocked with the filmmakers rep company of stars Bill Murray, Tom Waits, Adam Driver, Tilda Swinton, Iggy Pop, Steve Buscemi, RZA and a certain kind of remove that you might associate with the man who, once upon a time, gave the world Stranger Than Paradise and Down By Law and Mystery Train. Of course Jarmusch would make a deadpan movie about the undead. But theres also a palpable sense of anger running through this zombie-apocalypse hot take, with all of its confused citizens who dont know what they did to deserve this and materialism-obsessed ghouls and talk of the world being off its axis. Its a comedy, sometimes sandpaper-dry and sometimes slapstick-broad. And, whether the director fully realized it or not see below hes made one very pissed-off film.
A few days before The Dead Dont Die was set to make its premiere at the Cannes Film Festival, Jarmusch sat down to talk about why he decided to dip his toe into the cinematic walking-dead pool, how to direct Iggy Pop in playing a zombie, how he feels about the state of the world, how a samurai movie help him quit smoking and more.
So why a zombie movie?
A few years back, before I made Patterson which, yknow, is not a frivolous movie I wanted to make something very silly. Something ridiculous, kind of like Coffee & Cigarettes (2003). The characters in those sketches are almost like cartoons. I had an idea that Id like to make another film like that, and I thought, well, zombies could be interesting .
How so? In regards to that idea, I mean.
I could get actors that I love, little groups of them, and get them stuck in various places while outside, all of these creatures are just trying to break in and eat them. And then between the attacks of the zombies, there would be all this space for stupid, stupid conversations.
That was the original thought I just wanted them to get hold up in different little groups, using the actors I could summon forth or rather, trick into doing this. I kept that idea. Then when I actually started writing it, after Patterson was made, it was like I just followed my inclinations and it sort of ended up like this. Hopefully theres still some silly in here. But its not that thing Id originally thought of. That would have been more minimal. [Pause] And easier to make.
But it started as a kind of sketch movie?
Yeah, that was my intention and I still have this dilemma in the film. I usual follow one or two central characters down a single narrative path. Or like Mystery Train or Coffee & Cigarettes, theyre vignette structures but theyre kept separate. These had to be interwoven, so that became a bit more challenging. And when you add in the special effects its the hardest film Ive ever made. It was rough, physically, to make. I mean, Dead Man almost killed me, but I was a lot younger then.
Both of these movies are genre movies would it be safe to say you have a weird relationship with genre? Things tend to get Jarmusch-ized .
Genres are just frames you can put whatever you want inside them. Thats whats attractive about them. Something like Dead Man, it wasnt a typical Western. It was tripped out and slightly psychedelic. Only Lovers Left Alive its a love story, they just happen to be vampires. It was my way of telling a story about the total acceptance of another person, including their flaw. Loving someone for who they are, and having that last for an eternity. [Pause] Literally! Because theyre vampires. But Im not hierarchical when it comes to movies. I like all kinds of films.
Including zombie movies?
[Pause] I have to admit that zombies are not a really big attraction. Im not a big TV guy, so Ive never seen The Walking Dead. And Im not particularly interested in zombie movies.
OK .
I mean, that said, Ive always loved the old movies that used them thematically: White Zombie, I Walked With a Zombie. This was when they were Haitian voodoo receptacles that would do your bidding. You could control them. Thats a kind of through-line for those early films.
But to me, the great postmodern zombie director is George A. Romero. Hes the guy. And there are a lot of references for the Romero nerds in my movie. [Laughs] What hes done is incredible.
What would you say hes done?
He turns the whole concept into something completely different. You cant control the zombies. They are out of control. Generally, monsters vampires, Frankenstein, Godzilla, whatever they are outside the social structure. They are a danger to it, they are threatening it. With Romero, man, the zombies come from the social structure. Theyre something thats failed in the system. Theyre the result of the social structure falling apart. Theyre eating it from within.
Thats a pretty good way of boiling the whole zombie apocalypse thing down to its core, actually.
Right? So I love Romero, I love Night of the Living Dead, I love his work I love how he understood their use as metaphors. I mean, I think Night of the Living Dead is even more socially conscious now then he realized. I think its masterful, even its ugliness and shoddiness. Hes a big inspiration to me.
You riff on the whole consumerist aspect of Romeros movies, even having the zombies obsess over stuff they once loved: Coffee, Wi-fi
[In zombie voice] Chardonaaaaaayyyyy! [Laughs] Yeah, we borrowed that from Dawn of the Dead. I love how he did that: They are inhabiting familiar places, they still crave things they craved when they were alive, but theyre soulless. Theyre empty of everything except that single-cell desire for these things they used to have. It resonates with me.
Even in our film, where theyre wearing the same clothes they used to wear, that identity is gone. Its just vestigial. [Pause] Vestigial is a good word for how Romero uses them as well.
So it sounds like you do like zombie movies, kind of?
I think I just dont like zombies, period. Thats the ironic thing, I guess Im not a zombie fan. Im more of a vampire guy. They are complicated, they are sexual, theyre smart. They have a lot of difficult things they need to do to survive. Theyre shape-shifters now they are a bat, now they are wolf! Theyre fucking cool. Whats cool about a zombie? Theyre lifeless forms. Theyre soulless humanoids. Theyre an excuse.
How does one direct Iggy Pop to play a member of the hungry walking dead?
Oh, Iggys a great zombie, man. Ive worked with Iggy on a number of things now hes very open. He likes direction. He wants to know, Ok, whats the deal, what do you need from me? The only problem is that he almost got ill eating the prosthetic guts. They had vegan stuff, they had plastic stuff, they had all these different things for him to eat. But he could only do so many takes for so long. After a while, it was, Man, Im getting really grossed out here. I dont wanna vomit, Jim! Its ok, I just need one more shot of you holding the intestine and then I think we got it, Ig .
Its not a very gory zombie movie other than the scene you just described you have them turn to dust upon whenever they get disposed of. Did that idea come to you pretty early on?
I had this idea from the beginning, yeah. I didnt want a splatter movie. I didnt want extensive blood. But obviously, theres a lot of decapitation in this movie, so: Supposedly were what, over 60% water in our body, and our hearts and brains? I had this image of me just walking around like a fucking water balloon or half-sausage. So I thought, I just want them to turn to dust. Theyre so dry already, so you know dust to dust. I liked the idea of them being fluidless. I dont know if any zombie movies have done that. Have they? I havent seen many of them. But its always good to add your own thing.
Well, you can definitely say its your movie in terms of the cast alone
Yeah, I like working with the people I like. Id written the part of three cops for Bill [Murray], Adam [Driver] and Chloe [Sevigny]. I wrote the villain part for Steve Buscemi, because hes so sweet and generous and non-racist that I thought, Im gonna make him a really nasty racist that wears a MAGA hat. Because he will do it.
And costarring Tom Waits as a hermit prophet and Tilda Swinton as a mortician with a kantana
[Laughs] Look, any excuse to hang out with Tom is great. He and I talk a lot on the phone, but I dont see him much because hes on the West Coast. I liked when he lived in New York in the 80s, briefly I got to see a lot more of him then. Once, he went on the Letterman show and Dave asked him, So, youre from California but youve lived in New York for a while now? How would you describe the city? And he goes [breaks into Tom Waits voice] Well, Dave, its like youre on a ship but the waters on fire.
Id told Tilda about the sort of vague idea that I had for this a few years ago, and asked her: Is there any type of character youd want to play in this weird little town? And she immediately said, Oh, Id love to be an undertaker! Ok, Swinton, you got it!
Did she request a samurai sword as well?
No, that came from my love of martial arts, and martial-arts movies. And from when I quit smoking a few years back.
Lets focus on that last part if we could for a second.
So theres this Japanese film I love its from the Sixties and its called Sword of Doom
Thats the Tatsuya Nakadai film thats like the Bad Lieutenant of samurai movies, right?
Yeah, his character is this psychopathic samurai whos gone completely rogue and is just murdering people because he fucking feels like it. Because hey, theyre standing in his path, so fuck all of you! [Makes sword-slicing gestures and sounds] By the end of it, hes fighting all of these guys, and theyre chopping off his limbs, and hes still going because hes just fueled by sheer hatred. Its a really fucking angry, nihilistic movie! And when I was trying to quit smoking, I was filled with all this rage Id smoked for 35 years at that point, I knew it was going to be rough quitting! So what I did was, I holed up in my loft alone for 10 days and I watched Sword of Doom two to three times a day.
What?!
Id feel this rage coming on from quitting, Id throw the DVD on and just watch the movie from start to finish. Id feel my anger rising and then Id see this guy, with his fucked-up, twisted self doing all this horrible shit, and it just cleansed me, man. It helped me immensely. Thats my procedure. If you at home are quitting smoking, I highly recommend it. [Laughs]
So yeah, thats why Tilda has a samurai sword.
I was not expecting this to be your answer.
I keep threatening to remake it with Adam Driver as a sociopathic killer named Peterson. That was our joke on Paterson. Only hed have a .357 Magnum instead of sword. But otherwise, the same movie. This time, I just let him have the Peterson name.
[Here there by spoilers from this point on.]
So regarding Adams character he seems to be in on the fact that hes starring in a zombie movie.
Yeah, him and a few other characters. Bill too, at one point. Yeah.
I have my thoughts about why you may have done this, but: Why did you add the meta aspects of having your characters acknowledge that theyre in a movie?
[Pause] I never analyze where things are coming from or why when Im writing its more like if something is funny or interesting to me, I throw it in there. And like the dust thing, it came to me very early on, this idea of Adams character knowing its a film the whole time in a way and revealing it gradually. And then revealing that Bill kinda knew, but didnt know all the details. Adam had to know he was playing a guy whos playing a guy in a film not Adam, yknow, but a guy in a film. And Bills reactions to all this is just beautiful. He knew exactly how to handle it.
You do the same thing with Sturgill Simpsons theme song, The Dead Dont Die you hear it everywhere in the movie and everyone seems to love it
Except Buscemis character, whos a racist MAGA-hat-wearing bastard.
and everyone seems to know its the theme of the movie.
As soon as I started writing the script, I thought: Who should do the theme song? I gotta get Sturgill Simpson to write me one. Its in the original script song by Sturgill Simpson plays but when I was giving it to potential investors, I was advised to put TBD in there. My producer kept saying, We gotta talk to him first, dont tell them hes going to do it yet! But we got him. Such a great song, too. It feels like its from 1961 or something. I figured if these characters were going to face a horde of zombies, they should at least be able to enjoy the song too.
Now Im curious, what were your thoughts about this?
Maybe Im reading too much into this, but the fact that these folks seem to be stuck in a hellish environment they know it yet they cant get out it, they have to see it through to the bitterest end strikes me as a pretty apt metaphor for how a lot of folks feel right now, wouldnt you say?
Interesting. [Longer than usual pause] I mean, yeah, they are trapped in it in the same way were trapped in this world that has a broken operating system. Its fucking broken, and were in total denial of it. Look, we just celebrated Earth Day, and no one was talking about it was all Trump and Mueller, which, in my opinion, is total bullshit. Its been a distraction, intentionally. I get angry that people I know and love are obsessed with the Trump Show. Were in the sixth mass extinction now, who gives a fuck about the Russians?
But I mean, theres hope in our film.
Is there?
Well, the teenagers in the correctional facility. We dont know what happens to them one of them says I know a safe place we can hide and thats it. But we dont see them killed or zombified either. I have a lot of hope for the world because of youth movements today, like the teenagers out of Parkland, or the Sunrise Movement, or even the Extinction Rebellion folks in the U.K. Its just the kids who didnt fit into this fucked-up society. Theyre the only ones left for me.
Most filmmakers would have ended on them. You end on the only character who save everybody taking off for greener pastures, a horde of zombies chowing down on people and your narrator going What a fucked up world this is. It doesnt exactly suggest hope.
I didnt want to come back to those kids at the end; that just seemed too obvious. I wanted and I mean this in the most ridiculous way possible to have the pseudo-Michael Bay action scene be at the end. I mean, when am I ever going to get to make a movie where two guys with guns get out of a car, and go, [in serious voice] Lets do it.
Its a really angry comedy. Not Sword of Doom-level angry but its pretty bleak and outraged in its own way.
I guess it is an angry movie. I hadnt thought of it that way, but I guess it is. Im just sick of zombies, man. Like, the real zombies that re just walking around us, not paying attention to anything, letting the end of the world happen. Theres a throwaway line in Only Lovers Left Alive where the couple talks about humans being zombies because theyre not conscious of whats around them. And look how unconscious so much of the world is right now, for the most part, of its impending end. Its sad and its maddening. And Im really fucking sick of it.
But am I in Western Pennsylvania building walls against the rising sea? No. Im making a fucking zombie movie. Thats what I know how to do in terms of expressing my feelings about whats going on. Im not exactly activated. But I am angry about it. And maybe that came through the film in a way I didnt even realize.
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